Re: [flasah] Casing Bubbles
Greg,
Yes that is what I do. The rest of the area to be tooled is essentially still being cased until I open the next section.
With regard to how long the leather needs to be submersed, it really doesn't matter as long as it exceeds the leathers ability to absorb more moisture at a toolable level. Once the leather has EXCESS moisture, we now need for the moisture to evaporate enough that we can begin to tool. Now days because we use plastic to case with, less moisture is required initially because the plastic doesn't allow any evaporation. We are actually allowing the leather to cure a little before sealing it up. However if we use an ice chest to case with we can can close the leather up with more moisture because there is some room in the cooler to allow the leather to breath so to speak.
I may be all wet here (pun intended) but I think the important point is to recognize that the difference between casing and just wetting and going to work, is illustrated by your description of the cells needing the opportunity to "plump". I don't know if that really happens or not but it doesn't really matter.....it's a good visualization and the requirement you are describing is correct. Allowing the leather to sit in that moist environment and become saturated AND toolable is what we are trying to achieve. I think folks misunderstand that part. We are overwetting the leather and then allowing just enough moisture to dissapate to achieve a saturation level THAT CAN BE TOOLED. Holding the leather in that moist environment allows for that "plumping" you describe. If we don't achieve that we are just wetting the leather!
With regard to stretching we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think I tool excessively deep but maybe I do. But when I tool a full floral pattern and bevel and shade hard enough to achieve a good burnish, I am are going to stretch the leather! I make 8/9 oz leather stretch every day. That is not necessarily the case when you are figure carving. And it isn't necessarily true for ALL floral patterns (just the ones that I choose to tool, LOL) I would suggest that if you are not getting some stretch out of the leather when you are doing a full floral pattern that you may not be tooling deep enough or hard enough. I'm not talking about skirtiing leather and saddles, but I am talking about everything from 8/9 oz and down. Again I'm not saying it happens all the time....it depends on the pattern being tooled.
I have a belt pattern that I do that is very intricate and the lining I use on it is considerably thicker than the tooled leather it is backing. You can't see that when I'm finished of course....but to tool that pattern on thick leather would look terrible.
The size of the pattern being tooled makes a difference, but here is the thing that a lot of people don't understand. A small delicate pattern can't be tooled to it's maximum effectiveness on thick leather. The opposite is also true....you can't make a large pattern look as good on leather that is too thin. So the intricacy of the pattern can dictate the thickness of the leather. It has to do with being able to achieve the maximum amount of compression without destoying the fibers in the leather. When I shade or bevel I want to be able to "ground out" with my tools. doing an intricate pattern on heavy leather is akin to tooling on a sponge, LOL. So what I am suggesting is that if you are tooling a full floral pattern and are using the appropriate thickness of leather in order to achieve the maximum effectiveness in the tooling.....the leather will probably stretch!
What's the point of this digression?........LOL!...........the need for backing your leather when you tool, LOL!!
I'm worn out.....LOL....it's someone elses turn! LOL!
Bobby
----- Original Message -----From: GBSent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:08 AMSubject: Re: [flasah] Casing Bubbles
Sounds good Bob... lets discuss it further to make sure everyone knows what we are each describing.. .
It sounds like you are saying that you divide your project into sections AND carve AND stamp THAT section Completely before uncovering the next area to work on.. ?
Unlike what most people do .... which is to carve the entire piece, then do the successive stamping tools over the entire area....before going to the next tool... etc... ?
First I want to repeat that I really appreciate that you are so interested in only wetting the surface once... that you would go to this amount of trouble... or modify your process to whatever it takes to accomplish that ... along with the spectacular results you are able to share in the pictures of your work really helps back up what I have been preaching for 49 years.
Since my father also had some success in this field and NEVER glued anything to the back of any leather to work it.... I would still suggest that anyone that does have a problem with ' stretching ' their leather is working it too wet and / or choosing the wrong stamps for the situation.
I did not say there was no way to preserve the casing for that many hours... my definition of cased being that the all the cells in the leather were allowed to become Evenly wet.
So with that definition AND my desire not to ReWet the suface.... the application of moisture from the backside can in fact preserve the ' casing'... not the actual water extant during the covered period of time.... but the effect can be WiTHOUT adding water to the surface by spritzing from the backside.... and with a little practice one can anticipate the rate of needed additional water...
As a note to potential peanut gallery typists..... if your leather developes a dry area on the surface you must put water on that area to keep from having a ' drying line' ..... this is not what we are talking about with regards to avoiding re plumping of the cells in the project after stamping impressions have been applied.
The idea on a graph of the moisture content means that the amount of moisture curve always either stays level or goes down towards dry... never is there a blip going back up which would be the indicator of moisture which would be reabsorbed into the cells at the top layer and cause the decrese in crispness we work so hard to get in the first place.
I forgot to address the ' practice piece' mentioned in the last post....
This is one of the great ideas not used nearly enough... have a piece of leather which was cased at the same time as your project and use it to test for proper moisture content...
But in addition to that I suggest that having a practice piece next to your project is an excellant way to practice both carving and stamping IMMEDIATELY before you address your project... on carving.. particularly decorative cuts.... practice .... get ' warmed up' then do it to your project.... with stamps.... the angle you are going to hold the veiner and the amount you are going to move it with each hit can really be helped by a practice piece close by....
Ever since you described your wetting process I have been thinking about whether there is one way which might be better than the other....and why...
This is in regards to bubbles during the wetting process.... My father always let the bubbles stop before taking out the leather... if submerged.... on full sides we would have water in the bathtub and each of us hold one end and slowly drag it through the water.
In trying to figure out if physics favored one method over the other.... here is what I think.
Since there is going to be a drying process for all these situations.... what counts after going to the trouble of covering the leather and Waiting the necessary time is making SURE that effort is not wasted by taking any chances on whether or not there is enough excess free water near the cells to allow them to evenly plump up before the drying process begins.
Holding the leather under the water just until the bubbles stop is not the same as soaking the leather... as evidenced by the immediate change in the surface color soon after withdrawal from the water....
I think the example of ' free water' at the roots of plants is a good example. You can dry out and kill a plant with the soil still ' feeling ' moist to the touch. There has to be ' excess' or ' free water' available for plant roots to drink.
I think that leaving the leather under water only until the bubbles stop is a self limiting (not soaking ) indicator which also makes sure that the open areas between the cells has enough free water for the cells to be able to take it in and produce the desired result of even resistance and ability to hold an impression.
Gregory B. Moody
Daddysrulesleathercraft at yahoo groups
DRules999 on youtube soon
--- On Fri, 9/11/09, Bob Park <hidepounder@cox.net> wrote:
From: Bob Park <hidepounder@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [flasah] Casing
To: flasah@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 11:10 AM
Greg,Forgive me for piggybacking on your response here, but there is a technique to deal with adding moisture here that probably should be repeated. As you pointed out, the use of backing prohibits the addition of moisture through the back of the leather which is what we all used to do. However casing can still be maintained while using a backing by tooling in sections and keeping the untooled areas sealed in plastic wrap.I build a lot of rope bags that have a 21" diameter face. Depending on the size of my pattern, tooling time ranges between 12 and 16 continuous hours.....sometimes more. And as you stated there is no way to preserve casing in that amount of time. I am able to preserve the casing, however, without addiing moisture by breaking the tooling down in small sections that I can complete quickly. Each time I complete a section I uncover the next section and start out on freshly cased leather. Doing this takes a little thinking ahead and the plastic wrap can be a nuisance, however the benefit of controlling the stretch outweighs the nuisance factor for me. I might add also, that if in the course of handling and setting the piece up it dries a little, I will add moisture with a spray bottle before covering the untooled area with the plastic wrap. In essence, using the plastic wrap just extends the casing process. I point this out because using this technique takes away the time factor for anyone...whether they are a slow tooler (as I am) or not.In Dale's case I think the other reason for the rapid drying is because the leather isn't really cased. If it is put up too wet then that's how it comes out...too wet. Soaked is soaked! Then when he takes the leather out it is just drying normally. The trick is to achieve the maximum saturation at a level that is toolable and holding it there. It sounds more difficult than it is.Hope this helps.....(thanks for the piggyback, Greg!)Bobby----- Original Message -----From: GBSent: Friday, September 11, 2009 7:54 AMSubject: RE: [flasah] Casing
"Once it does, from this point on the drying process seems to shift into
high gear and it almost always dries quicker than I can finish the
tooling. I always wind up having to add moisture to finish."--Dale
Dale, You do not have a problem and you are not working too slow.
As has been mentioned ... the moisture in the air and the temperature and movement of the air in the room affect the drying rate of the project.
Put a fan on it if you need to for that ' looong ' initial stage out of the case.
As to working slow... that is really not a problem if you use a water spritzer on the backside regularly. I have mentioned this with respect to the discussion about not gluing things to the back of your project... that shoots people in the foot right from the start because it takes away the option of spritzing from the BACK SIDE...
Reread Bob Park's fine statement on the process if you do not believe me and the others who have been saying that rewetting the top side once stamping is started takes away crispness of the impressions. ... some do not care or believe me when I say that... but the physics are obvious to others.
If things worked out that I hit the exact moisture content for not adding any water to a billfold back I figured everything had gone just right...
but even with my speed at that time.... if I got a phone call or someone cut their finger and I had to go deal with that... simply spritzing took away the problem.
My father carved many full sides... there is no way anyone , even trying to keep the unworked section covered could do those large projects without having to rewet...and he knew he did not want to rewet the TOP SIDE... so he anticipated the water flow from the bottom and spritzed regularly... many of his pictures took 10-14 hours at one sitting. He did not stop for meals... mom brought sandwiches and coffee....and of course he had nicotine to keep him going.
Gregory B. Moody
--- On Wed, 9/9/09, Wolvenstien <choochoocomm@ comcast.net> wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse with this subject after the past furious
discussion, but I'm just wondering if I'm doing something wrong. It
seems that no matter which method I use to wet the leather (sponge,
submersing, even waiting for all the bubbles to stop) I'm having this
problem. Maybe it's just that I'm too slow, bit I don't think so.
After unwrapping my leather the next day, it usually takes a looooong
time for the natural color of the leather to return to the grain side.
Once it does, from this point on the drying process seems to shift into
high gear and it almost always dries quicker than I can finish the
tooling. I always wind up having to add moisture to finish.
--
Dale Erwin
Av. Circunvalació n CEC-2
Los Girasoles de Huampaní
Lurigancho, Lima 15, PERU
http://www.casaerwi n.org
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